A recent Facebook conversation.
Note that I never get an answer to my principal question as well as the numerous bizarre and frankly irrelevant questions posed to me.
Also, I don't know why these guys write English the way they do, but it's apparently a pattern among Africans.
Khan:
TO THE DISBELIEVERS.
Each time we tell you that Islam is the solution to your problem, WHY DO YOU DISAGREE?
But we found that you are the largest patronizers of islamic banks (in Nigeria).
Without islam you would have no choice but to patronize those heartless banks you set up. They don't care about you, they can't wait to see you go bankrupt.
BUT ALLAH WANTS EASE FOR YOU.
Rhology
My biggest problem is sin. How does Islam solve that for me?
Khan
Rhology, islam absolves you of sin the same way jesus foretold in the parable of the prodigal son.
When you repent and turn away from sin you will find Allah oft forgiving, most merciful.
When you repent and turn to Allah, its like a baby spreading its arms to its mother to be lifted. And we know mothers are merciful, but Allah is more merciful.
Rhology
So Allah will ignore my sin if I stop sinning?
What if I can't stop sinning? What if I realise that I will never be as good as God?
Khan
If you stop sinning, Not only will Allah ignore your sins, "ALLAH WILL CHANGE THEIR SINS INTO GOOD DEEDS..." Q25:70.
WHAT IF I CAN'T STOP SINNING?
He (Allah) has created DEATH and LIFE that He may test which of you is best in deed. And he is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving. Q67:2.
Our life is a test, to see how much good we can do. Allah knew man would not stop sinning, that is why He opened the gates of Repentance till when the sun rises from the east and sets in the west (the last day).
As for being as good as Allah, know that Allah says: THERE IS NOTHING LIKE HIM (Allah), and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.
Allah is perfect, but man is susceptible to mistakes.
And Allah's aid is sought.
Khan
I meant Allah would leave the gates of repentance open till when the sun will rise from the WEST and set in EAST.
Rhology
But you're pretty confident you've done enough good to counterbalance your evil? How do you know?
Khan
Rhology.
When a student goes to school, he does some tests where he got good grades before the real exam. Tell me pls, if this student relents in his efforts and grows complacent with his efforts, what will happen to the final result after exam? FAILURE?
That is the case of the muslim, he is never satisfied with the little good deeds he has performed, he keeps trying and striving to do more, and he remains in that state till his death. Another benefit of this is that, the whole world would benefit if we could all be in this state and keep striving to do good.
My nxt comment explains another scenario.
Khan
If a student goes to school and he knows that no matter what he does, he will come out with beautiful result. Don't you think this will lead to d student being complacent and lazy? This will also lead to producing students undeserving of their results, mediocres and a nation will be adversely affected.
Likewise, if we all believed that jesus died for our sins, and no matter what we do (steal, kill, fornicate, lie e.t.c) we would still get God's pleasure, what do u think the world will be like.
That is why Allah the All-Wise says in the last verse of Q15,
AND WORSHIP YOUR LORD TILL THERE COMES TO YOU THE CERTAINTY (death).
Lastly, the muslim is never satisfied with the good he does, he continue to do good and repent from evil till he breathes his last.
All praise belongs to Allah.
Rhology
Khan, If the teacher at the school requires a PERFECT GRADE, then yes, the student will fail for missing on question. You seem to think that breaking God's law is no big deal.
Are you sure? You're NEVER satisfied? NEVER lazy? I don't believe that. I believe you're just like the rest of humanity - a sinner. You're not ALWAYS attuned to God. Not ALWAYS seeking him. You sometimes don't care enough to resist temptation.
Your second image is not how it is with Jesus, not at all. I'm sorry you're so ignorant of the Bible, but maybe you could read it some time.
Human nature begins corrupted, enemies of God. We break God's law. We love the world and don't love God.
When Jesus rescues us, He gives us a new heart that loves to serve Him and hates sin. Thus we serve Him because we have love for Him. We are now adopted children and no longer enemies. We serve Him out of gratitude.
However, we are warned over and over that the redeemed heart WILL love holiness and hate sin, so if we engage in unrepentant and consistent sin, it shows us that our hearts are not repentant after all, and that we are still lost, in sin, and enemies of God. Not saved after all. We are to test ourselves all the time to make sure that we are in the faith. God's declaration of salvation of a specific individual is not necessarily known infallibly by that individual.
So, if the Muslim repents of evil, Allah just ignores the lawbreaking? Does a just judge ignore lawbreaking when rendering judgment? Or if he ignores sin, is he not UNjust?
Khan
Rhology, the teacher does not require a perfect grade, he only require that you make an effort. He requires that each time you stumble, you pick yourself up and never give up.
Khan
Is a student who is preparing for an exam ever satisfied with his preparation? Rather he continue his preparation till the last minute.
So Allah says, in the Quran,
~ Help one another in virtue, righteousness and piety. Q5:2.
~ Hasten towards all that is good. Q2:148.
~ Race (compete) with one another towards forgiveness of your Lord and Paradise... Q57:21.
Competitiveness does not make one lazy, tired, satisfied or complacent.
Khan
You claim that human nature begins with corruption.
But islam teaches that it is from human nature to choose and love what is good. But along the line, an individual could choose to corrupt himself.
Ask anyone to choose between,
honey&fire, love&hate, happiness& sorrow. If you choose that which is good then it shows that your human nature is not yet corrupted. But some humans can decide to be a source of sorrow to others even though they know joy is better. These ones have corrupted their own good nature.
Khan
So if you still need to evaluate yourselves after jesus died, then it means you are still responsible for your sins and jesus did not die for your sin. And he did not want to die anyway.
But it is a common claim amongst christians that they now live in a period of grace, so they can do as they wish.
There are two types of sins that the muslim should repent of:
1. The one that involves the right of a fellow human: if i wrongly slap or abuse a person, then i have to ask the person to either take revenge or forgive me.
2. The one that involves the right of Allah alone: such as worshipping idols or disobedience to Him. if a muslim repents from this, Allah says, "I will accept their repentance. And I am the One who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful." Q2:160.
Rhology
So the teacher does not require perfection? That means that imperfection and sin can enter Paradise. How precisely does Allah guarantee that Paradise won't end up like Earth - full of sin and disobedience to Allah?
Yes, I know Islam teaches that man is born good. That is part of Islam's great deception. The Taurat and Zabbour teach the opposite. So does the Injeel. Are you comfortable with the fact that the Qur'an appeals to those books for its confirmation, yet teaches contrary to what they teach?
How many murders must one commit to be a murderer?
You said:
--"So if you still need to evaluate yourselves after jesus died, then it means you are still responsible for your sins and jesus did not die for your sin"
What is your argument for this statement? You simply asserted it but did not prove it.
Specifically, the evaluation is, as the Bible says:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? 6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
Faith is a SIGN OF one's sins being forgiven and one's heart being transformed, and good works are a sign of that faith. So you really still don't understand.
You said:
--"And he did not want to die anyway."
That is only half the truth. Just as humans are complex creatures and can have varied emotions, so Jesus, being God and human both, does.
The same Jesus who cried out to the Father "IF IT BE YOUR WILL, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, let this cup pass from Me" (even though He knew the cup could not pass), these things are ALSO true of Him:
Luke 9:51 - 51When the days were approaching for His ascension, He was determined to go to Jerusalem
Matthew 17:22And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; 23and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day.” And they were deeply grieved.
Matthew 20:28 whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.
Luke 19:10“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
So, Khan, please answer my question. Does Allah simply ignore sin?
Khan
God has not created man to be perfect. But a repenting soul will enter paradise.
Allah will forgive and overlook the sins of whomsoever he wills. Just like teachers overlook their students errors when marking their scripts.
Khan
Quran does not require any book for its authenticity, but the earlier books depend on the Quran which confirms what is true in them as well as distinguishes what is false, " And when there came to them a book (Quran) CONFIRMING that which is with them..." Q2:89.
So it is the Quran that authenticates the previous books, not the other way round.
Khan
If you still need to evaluate yourself, then it clearly shows that jesus did not die to save even a rat.
You have done nothing do dispel my assertion.
Your bible says, the son shall not bear the iniquities of the father and vice versa, did God contradict the rule later on by making jesus die for a sin he was innocent of? THIS IS REAL INJUSTICE.
I said, jesus did not want to die and this has not been denied by the verses you quoted. If jesus wanted to die, why did he cry out:
1. O lord, why hast thou forsaken me?
2. Let this cup (of death) pass away from me, not as i will. But as you will.
Do these sound like he wanted to die?
Akim
@Rhology in order make dis argueement easier 4 u, pls try and get translation version of only QURA'N and authentic BIBLE version and read both. I know dat at end u will embrace ISLAM inshaallah.
Rhology
Akim, I have already read the Bible many times, and I have also read the Muhsin Khan version of the Qur'an and taken copious notes. The Qur'an is a mess of inconsistencies, stupid arguments, and random stream-of-consciousness rambling. I need a Savior from sin. Islam says "do better!" Jesus says "I did it perfectly and give righteousness as a gift for those who recognise they can never be perfect on their own."
I'm sticking with Jesus.
Khan
Have a nice day.
Rhology
Khan
So a judge who ignores lawbreaking is a good and just judge? Isn't it true that a just judge must PUNISH all lawbreaking?
It sounds like you don't think the law is a very big deal. Which means that sin is not a very big deal.
Is sin a big deal, or is it insignificant? If Allah overlooks sin, why doesn't he just overlook shirk too?
You didn't quote the right passage from the Qur'an.
Surah 5:45 If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.*** Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.***
But even what you said destroys your case. The Qur'an does not CONFIRM what came before it, since it teaches the exact opposite in many ways. "Confirm" does not mean "contradict fundamentally".
You said:
--" the son shall not bear the iniquities of the father and vice versa"
Where does anyone claim that Jesus bears the iniquity of His Father? I don't get it. Or that the Father bears the iniquity of Jesus? Since neither sinned, how is this passage relevant? Did you even study the passage you're quoting and view the context? Probably not, since you have a very poor understanding of the Bible.
Rhology
You said:
--"I said, jesus did not want to die and this has not been denied by the verses you quoted."
You must have a short memory, because I clearly said that Jesus experienced BOTH OF THOSE EMOTIONS. Look, I know it's hard when your arguments are wrecked, but if you want to be honest, you have to learn when to stop using terrible arguments.
Khan
I never said jesus bore the iniquity of d father.
Chk eze18:20.
Q5:45 only states that the revelation to jesus (not matt, mark, luke, john, paul) confirmed the previous revelation of moses.
Akim
@Rhology Remember dat there no other punishment more severe in front OF ALLAH dan his hellfire,u read QURA'N and u said d holy book his full of rubbish,arguement etc .Stop ur stubboness and listen 2 d only way 2 salvation b4 it's 2 late 4 u.Remember again dat d most painfull punishment in front ALLAH is his hellfire.
Khan
The judge sentences the criminal to jail but releases him when he serves his term.
When a muslim commits a sin he is like a prisoner but when he repents he is discharged and acquitted and Allah will never ask him about the sin he repented of again.
You are still yet to produce proof that jesus wanted to die.
If jesus wanted to die, why did he ask God to save him.
Rhology
Akim, have you read the Injeel?
Khan
Rhology, i wonder if u wld know that the injil existed without the Quran?
If u agree that the NT is the injil wc d Quran mentions, then you would agree with what the Quran says about the injil:
1. That it was revealed or inspired to jesus not matt, mark, luke e.t.c
2. That the followers of jesus differed and changed the word of God to suit their desires.
Rhology
Khan, so Allah allowed Jesus' revelation to be lost, and His followers/companions got it completely wrong? What's your evidence of that? Why did Allah allow that?
Ezek 18 is referring to God's refusal to punish heinous sins committed by a father to someone else in his family, like his son. If it meant that everyone who ever sins will die, nobody would ever go to Heaven to be with God.
God always knew that He would send the Messiah, the Savior.
So what is the sentence for sin that you will have served if you make it to Paradise? You've sinned, haven't you?
If you repent and Allah forgives, it sounds like NO justice has been served. NO sentence, NO punishment. Just repent and you're OK. Allah doesn't care about sin enough to punish it. Is that right?
Yes, actually I have produced numerous verses that say Jesus intended to die, that it was His mission. Did you not even read them?
Rhology
Yes, the Injeel existed a long time before the Qur'an. What does that even mean?
Khan
How did you know the injeel existed long before the Quran if not through the Quran.
Khan
Allah gave the responsibility of guarding and spreading the information in the injil, as a test to them, but they failed.
Q2:101. And when there came to them a messenger from Allah (Muhammad) confirming what was with them, a party of those given the scripture THREW AWAY THE BOOK OF ALLAH behind their backs as if they did not know.
Khan
You still have not mentioned a single verse where jesus wanted to die.
According to the bible, jesus was not the only messiah.
Allah will however punish the sinners except those who repent.
Omar
@Rhology,u said jesus is u savior.is he God or son of God?
Rhology
Khan, yes, A PARTY OF THEM did so. Nobody's arguing with that. How do you know who they were?
Doesn't it say in Surah 3:52
But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].
Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger Jesus, so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."
That doesn't sound at all like what you said.
You're confused.
Or Surah 61:14
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
If Allah supported those who believed and they became dominant, why was their Injeel lost? Where did they go?
How could Allah tell Mohammed Surah 10:94?
So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.
It sounds like you don't know your Qur'an very well either, at least as it pertains to the Injeel. You need to give up this failed religion, Khan, and repent before Jesus.
And you say Allah will not punish the repentant?
If I commit a murder and go before the judge, and he judges me guilty, if I tell him that I'm sorry and I really am sorry, is he just if he releases me without passing judgment on me? Without putting me in prison?
Rhology
Omar, the Injeel describes Jesus as both God Himself and the Son of God. God is a triune God. This is a mystery, but we submit to what God has revealed about Himself even if it is too high for us to fully understand.
Rafi
@ Rhology, what really caused confussion now it is just the liars who translated original text of bible into english.
But something really baffle me how can a book could be given a title (bible) in the original text but all the context in thesame was written in another different languages entirely?
So who gave bible it's title?
Rhology
Rafi, that is simply untrue. We know what the Greek and Hebrew say, and they say what the English says. You need to give some evidence to support this assertion.
And what does this mean?
"how can a book could be given a title (bible) in the original text"
I think you don't really know what you're talking about. Stop listening to Ahmed Deedat, try some reasonable Christians.
Rafi
What I meant by that is Why bible was named as the title and the contents is englush & why can't we have the original langusge of Jesus as Bible Text?
Then what is the meaning of BIBLE & from which language?
What did Jesus mean by RABI & from which language?
'ABBA FATHER' what jesus mean by these words & what is the origin of these words?
Rhology
We DO have the original language of Jesus - the Greek is widely and publicly available.
I don't read Greek, though, so I read the English translation. Give me a reason why I should distrust the English translation.
RABBI and ABBA FATHER are Aramaic. Jesus possibly spoke in at least partly Aramaic.
Omar
@accordng 2 d bible verse u qouted,jesus called himself son of man,nt son of God or God.did jesus named any religion christainity?
Rafi
Is Jesus a GREEK MAN OR JEW?
Omar
@Rhology.is it ur revised nd edited new testament u call injeel?jesus is nt God but a prophet from God.nt son
Rhology
Jesus called Himself the Son of Man AND the Son of God, and accepted worship as God, called Himself one with the Father. He claimed to be God. There's no denying it. What you do with that is the question.
Jesus was a Jew. Who spoke Greek, like most Jews of that time and place.
Omar, do you think Allah allowed his words to be corrupted by his enemies?
Rafi
Which means Jesus didn't know his specific statue.
Also Romans self are GREEK
Rhology
Rafi, that didn't make any sense. Could you please try again, and be careful to write in English?
Afo
@Rhology. Where did jesus accept to be worship as God?
Rafi
Yo can write also in english, since the you don't even knowtje original text/meaning of the word bible.
And your god jesus who was the Director, Chairman, Manager, Massanger & Gateman, which means he was MR FORMAN.
Omar
@Rafi.rmemba dat jesus is our prophet,b mindful of wat u say about him.
Rhology
John 20:26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Rafi
They all denied him (jesus), because he lost his legitimacy.
Rhology Who denied Him? Have you read the book of Acts?
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